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Sho no Sasayaki [ENG]

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Thanako

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PostSubject: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:58 pm#1

Murmurs of the Books

I am [the intentions of the books, fully come together] (Chronica)
The original text of the Black Chronicle, as you've taken to calling it
I have an offering, if you wouldn't mind an old tale...



(I have been forced to deal failure, chronic Chronicle...) **1
[We are the ones promised blessings from the book...]
(Memory thinks; that you found love, manic Chronicle...) **1
[They are the ones condemned by the book...]



Once upon a time, somewhere out there, was a man...
He had been caught up in a destructive fate...
But he'd overcome his hardships… And he found a way to escape from that fate of his...

Even so... That escape from the fate was already deduced by a different fate...

He would only meet another fate, should he escape from that fate, too

No matter how much he will push, he will be caught in the snare one of these days



I wonder if you can understand the truth of the books? Black history does not forgive any tampering...

Do you believe in a "forever"? ...Would such a thing even be good

It isn't something to worry about, though, because the history of the book is absolute

This world has harmony, everything is pre-established, with creation and elimination repeated endlessly...



I wonder about your understanding of the books? Black history will never forgive any tampering...

In the end, he could not escape from the grip of the hands of fate
...With that said, you'd be foolish to pity him
Because I can not escape either, nor you...


And they lived happily ever after**2


**Translator's Notes

1. The original lyrics are not in the booklet. This is purely speculation, as are all other interpretations. The popular western interpretation is completely different from the popular Japanese interpretation, for example.

The definition of "Chronic"

- continuing or occurring again and again for a long time

The definition of "Manic"

- showing wild and apparently deranged excitement and energy.

2. While the phrase "Medetashi, medetashi" means "Wonderful, wonderful", it is used in storybooks instead of the English "And they lived happily ever after". This can also means "It's so blissful". I am using the English variant, but do come to your own conclusions!

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Last edited by Thanako on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Alchea


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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:09 am#2

As someone who knows some japanese, I would love to discuss some parts I find weird:

This one is just a question from a japanese learner to a translator, why did you choose to translate 総体 as "manifested"? Just curious, however.

As for this part...

幾度となく誕生と消滅を繰り返す世界 全ては予定調和の内

You translated it like this "This world has harmony, everything is pre-established, from your birth to your disappearance...", but if I was forced to do it.... it would be more like this:

"This is a world in which creation and destruction repeat endlessly. Everything is within a pre-established harmony."

The words used for creation and destruction are too ambiguous for me to think in the birth and death of a PERSON as the only potential option and I would rather select a more ambiguous translation. Also it's a shame that the "repeated endlessly" part ends up cut in your translation.

That aside, I like your translation quite a bit! I wouldn't probably do it the same way, but that's obvious (to start, my english level isn't enough to translate). However, this bit bugged me quite a lot.
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Thanako

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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:34 am#3

The interesting thing is I breezed through it at like midnight. I tried to go for something more stylistic, and so it was in large part a test, when inspiration struck at an inopportune time.

I understand that manifest is probably not the best choice, but do hear me out. I used manifest since my interpretation of 総体 would be as "[the book] being formed from many separate units coming together", or in this case volumes and pages. It's a choice I thought could convey that better. Do you have any further suggestions? I know what it's saying, but I don't know how to convey that in English. How's this?

I am [the intentions of the books, fully come together] (Chronica)


~~~~~~~~


As for the other line, hmm... I love where you're coming from, but the 消滅 still would throw me off with your translation. Now that I've gotten some sleep and thought it over, I've settled a bit on:

"This world has harmony, everything is pre-established, with creation and elimination repeated endlessly..."

What do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:36 pm#4

This is the kind of reason why I can help others by reviewing their translations... but never ask me to translate to english anything aside of perhaps the short verses for my theory or discussion posts.

I understand why did you decide to translate it that way now, but there are suggestions I feel in no place to do in english. I could think in other ways to express it in my own native language, certainly, but my ability with english reaches just so far. Sorry.

Same for what word could be a better translation for 消滅, I would have probably used "Aniquilación" or "Extinción" in spanish.

That aside, I think that your second version is quite lovely and it has my absolute approval!

I just really disliked seeing those juicy details lost~
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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:42 pm#5

That's just fine, too. I typically don't like being my only proof-reader. I had a handful of people help me with my works of Assorted Horizons, for example. It's easy to lose track of something when your focus is completely on something else, after all. I don't exactly think that Extinction fits quite as well in English, though. The beauty of different languages is fantastic, because of how each has a different flow. And even beyond that, not everyone will agree.

We actually have a Spanish translator helping on our end here, too. I hope you keep an eye out. I know you stopped using Tumblr, so it could be a bit of a godsend for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:05 pm#6

This is an important song and I'm happy it's getting evaluated right now. In terms of meaning, I feel like I agree with your translation for the most part (really, I do not possess enough Japanese knowledge to really judge this whatsoever). As a native English speaker, however, I'd like to comment on certain things to make the translation flow better and sound more natural while still maintaining the same meaning you've interpreted and established. I feel like this could make it a stronger translation overall to the English language.

The very first thing that jumps out to me is the title. I am not fond of the word "murmurs", personally because a certain book written by a talentless hack of a writer ruined that word forever for me with its gross overuse (completely unrelated to Sound Horizon and absolutely irrelevant). In any case, I really don't think the word "murmurs" gets the point across as well. The common translation is "whispers", and while I do appreciate the desire to differentiate and make a unique and alternate translation, this is a case where I feel the synonym loses impact. "Murmurs" and "whispers" have different connotations and I feel that "whispers" really captures the feeling and mood of this song, more so than "murmurs". This is a pretty minor thing and it's really just quibbling over synonyms and semantics, which I never like doing anyway.

Past the title, I do want to talk about [the intentions of the book, fully come together]. As I said earlier, I feel like the meaning is fine and I can't exactly argue with that with my limited knowledge of Japanese. However, as a native speaker of English I would like to make it sound as strong as possible in this language in a way that sounds natural to English speakers. I feel like a better way of saying this is [Sentient Personification], an original translation that I quite much like. I feel like the word "personification" should be used, as it truly fits Chronica's nature as an anthropomorphized book.

As for the "fully come together", this is a phrase that takes three words when it could be more elegantly combined into one. There are a lot of words that can be used here: aggregate, accumulation, amalgam, sum. Words like combination and collection also work, but not quite as well. Here are some possibilities:

"I am the [Sentient Personification of the Book's Intentions] "

This is a good way of rewriting it, even if it doesn't have "fully come together" or "sum" or a synonym, it gets the meaning across without including one of those words. I like it a lot.

"I am the [Accumulation of the Book's Intentions] "

A simple way of saying that Chronica is the "intentions of the book fully come together", in a more elegant way. Not too much of a fan and it can be improved still.

"I am the [Amalgam of the Book's Intentions] "

A curious choice is to use this word, meaning mixture or blend (usually something combined in a joint fashion). An interesting decision would be to use "amalgam" versus "amalgamation". Although usually listed as variants, "amalgamation" is used more in context with the process of combining everything into one. Now this depends on your interpretation, but you could indeed say that this fits with the character.

Then there's the "I have been forced...Chronicle...blah blah" part that I can't decipher as hard as I try. I do hear some of the words you hear, but I just can't say I hear anything with much confidence so I have no comment there. I like what you came up with the chorus, though, and I think it fits in context so at least that!

After this part, there are just some odd word choices here and there. The word "deduced" doesn't exactly fit here as well as others in terms of fate. I would exchange it with "determined", as "deduction" usually refers to something being figured out or solved. In terms of fate and destiny, "determined" is a stronger word choice that gets the meaning across.

Then there's:

Quote :
This world has harmony, everything is pre-established, with creation and elimination repeated endlessly...

I would simply change this to be "This world has a pre-destined harmony, with creation and destruction repeated endlessly". Almost the exact same thing, but with smoother grammar and using a better antonym for "creation" in "destruction" which fits better than "elimination" to serve the black/white duality that Chronicle 2nd is going for in most songs.

I like how you paid attention to "medetashi, medetashi", as this is an important note that is good to include. That's great, and overall this does get the meaning across very well. I just wanted to make a constructive analysis of how it could be even more improved for English speakers, hopefully giving a lot of possibilities on how to make it better as a whole. These are mostly finesse, subtle things that I feel like I can pitch in on as a native English speaker to convey the meaning in a clearer way for the reader.
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Thanako

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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:05 am#7

Please note that translations of Sound Horizon can not be done without bias, as the Japanese is often left vague enough to have multiple meanings. You'll see a lot of that in the future. This is just important to get out of the way, even though I try to be neutral with things. It is simply impossible to capture perfectly a lot of what Revo is doing, as it's done with his own experience in a language that is very different from most.

(I'm probably going to add this to the top of future translations, I'm proud of how these words came out).

The choice of the word "murmur" is actually a bit deeper than you may think, and not chosen simply to look different from another translation. A murmur here is specifically relating to a complaint, which is what I consider the song ultimately to be about. Granted, the complaint would be disguised as a "story", for the sake of my private interpretation. She is a book, in the end. On top of that, I interpret her chorus as having the word "forced" in it.

Even further, this story does not begin with a page number, like so many others in Chronicle 2nd. I understand that this may be a bit of a minor gripe for you, but from my perspective, this seems the best choice, as it goes beyond just my own personal interpretation and has other meanings. I feel like I can subtly convey my thoughts with this correct interpretation without preaching it, as I've seen done with other translations (though not of this line in particular. You get what I mean).

Now we move on to how Chronica addresses herself... I really didn't want to clog things here. My original used "manifest" for the idea of it all coming together, but I agreed with Alchea that this interpretation was sort of pushing it. I rather like what I have, especially since words like "aggregate" aren't exactly entry-level words. To be quite honest, I don't see this term as feeling natural when translated at all. This is one to think on.

As far as the chorus goes, I never could hear what other interpretations imply. The so-called Latin goes completely against the emphasis and annunciation in the more easily understood Pico Magic version of this chorus. I also don't like the Japanese wiki's interpretations very often of English.

It's no insult to them, they try their best and do a much better job than any other wiki I've seen in other languages. With that said, they're not exactly accurate, even if they do try. Their interpretation of Mother was loose at best (you try and remember every word of a song after an entire concert, much less that used words with a heavy accent in another language) and even though I was criticized for saying it was wrong, time proved me right.

(Unrelated note, props to them for trying to explain White Illusion)

Sometimes it just turns into you feeling like your best resource, and I did my best. I hope others disagree, and come to their own conclusions, too. East vs West already have completely different accepted interpretations of this in particular.

As far as "deduced" goes, I can't see the word fate without thinking of the 6th horizon. But I suppose that this is correct and I will switch it to "established".

I feel pain with the usage of the word "destruction", here. I know it fits better. It just doesn't sit right with me... I guess I'll change it, but I'm not happy about it. I still like disappeared best, but a translation has to adapt. How is this?

"This world has harmony, the endlessly repeating process of creation and destruction is all pre-established"



It takes a lot of courage to do these types of suggestions for a translator. I've had my own experiences (unrelated to SH) where someone would be extremely negative when someone suggests there may be a better way to handle something than what they worked hard on. I just want to go out of my way to thank you guys for your help. I actually dread the idea of doing translations without outside influences, especially with native speakers. I must have gotten 500 complaints from my 2 Greek friends when I kept having them look over just my 3-song translation from Assorted Horizons.

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PostSubject: Re: Sho no Sasayaki [ENG] Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:24 am#8

Good work! I like these changes a lot. I hope you understand that I just want to make this even better than it already is, because I feel like the meaning is very strong and I just want it to communicate better.

I understand that words like "aggregate", "amalgam" aren't exactly entry level in terms of English vocabulary, but I also think that a translation should be as smooth as possible. There really is no end to what we can say here, there are native English speakers who might not even know what the word "tampering" is. To that I say, they can look at a dictionary. There are a lot of complex ideas expressed in Sound Horizon and I deeply appreciate the desire to simplify for readers to understand, but just as a word of caution don't fall into the trap of "dumbing things down" and use the words that fit best no matter what. There are a lot of words in the English language that I don't know, but the ones I suggested are not too high level. Now it would be very silly if you translated a word like "きれい" into "pulchritudinous", in fact absolutely ridiculous to do that, but that's a bit different.

Thank you so much for your hard work! I appreciate all that goes into your translations~
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