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[Mature] Lafrenze' Relations

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Thanako

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PostSubject: [Mature] Lafrenze' Relations Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:24 am#1

Just in case the subtle imagery wasn't enough, you can actually hear Orpheus (voiced by Revo, with uncomfortable clarity) having sex with Lafrenze, at presumably the moment Lafrenze' future baby would be planted. (I don't know the proper English term). This happe

While you can also sort of hear this in the regular version from Elysion, Jimang's exclamation is much more emphasized in that take. You can actually hear this as a transition a few times during the song, which are easy to miss if you're like me and generally innocent. The transitions happen multiple times, but are most clearly heard in the Pico Magic version.

That sound Revo as Orpheus makes as he "climaxes" gives me the shivers, and it made me feel impure and uncomfortable.

Beyond just this interesting tidbit, I figure that a discussion focused around the spawn of rose princess and her one unfortunate choice are worthy of a discussion.

Was it her fate, perhaps? Just her insatiable lust? It's rather clear that there is a lot of sexual imagery in this song in particular. In keeping with the theme of Elysion being about forbidden love, do you think there is a similar subtext about the religious interpretations of chastity?

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Alchea


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PostSubject: Re: [Mature] Lafrenze' Relations Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:45 am#2

What future baby????

If you are talking about El, I will have to heavily disagree and comment about it. I've always considered that theory a bit senseless, especially because of this:

El no Rakuen [Side: E] wrote:
「私は...生涯彼女を愛することはないだろう...
"I... probably didn't ever love my girlfriend through my lifetime...

しかし...彼女という存在は...私にとって特別な意味を孕むだろう...
However...  her existence... probably bears a special significance to me...

何故なら...生まれてくる娘の名は...遠い昔にもう決めてあるのだから…」
Why...? Because the name of the girl to be born... was already decided a long time ago..."

This is ABYSS' narration in Side: E, and probably the only mention we ever have of El's mother. We know that they had been together probably for quite a long time through this, but he never loved her: he just desired to be by her side for the sake of the girl to be born from her. Her name had been decided long ago after all.

This talks to me of a long-standing relationship that was always twisted by Abyss' true desires and ambitions. Not some casual meeting with an unknown damsel and then a baby happened.

-> 彼女という存在 This could be translated as "The existence referred as girlfriend/she". Japanese doesn't difference between She and Girlfriend, so it can be difficult to say anything for sure. But personally the japanese says to me this: "I didn't love the person I called girlfriend, but she still bears a special meaning to me". It makes more sense in this context, in what my opinion regards.

Even if it is a simple "she", the lifetime bit seems to indicate a long relationship... not a short meeting.

So I've never seen a way to reconcile one of the few canon bits we have of ABYSS' personal story with the whole idea of El coming out of Lafrenze. And then there are the fact that Lafrenze is the "original sin", so to speak. If anything, I've always thought that she is the first El in the Elysion Cycle.

The idea about it being about the concept of chastity is interesting, and it could perfectly be focused in that. But well, I never noticed those... sound effects you talk about...
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Thanako

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PostSubject: Re: [Mature] Lafrenze' Relations Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:16 pm#3

If that's the case, I would listen to the Pico Magic version with utmost caution if I were you. I'm not going to try and imply that it is El, but there is emphasis on a rather awkward time. While I may or may not believe the baby to be El, is irrelevant. It could simply be about chastity, or becoming pregnant could be what causes her issue. There very well be a baby, though.

Sound Horizon is intentionally vague, but... I do completely understand the significance of a virgin in such cultures as well. I'm sort of torn on the ideas.

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Ghostie

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PostSubject: Re: [Mature] Lafrenze' Relations Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:06 pm#4

I've been trying to hear the sound effects you hear in the Pico Magic version. I hear some moaning underneath, well, more moaning from the spirits of the dead. It's possible that these are sexual noises, although I never particularly heard them and even when I try, it's a bit of a stretch for me to hear.

But sexual noises regardless, I see it as essentially established that Orpheus seduces Lafrenze and they do have sex. There are too many entendres in the song about Lafrenze "opening her lips", suggesting that sex does happen and of course it's unprotected at that. So I do understand where the theory comes from, that El is Lafrenze's daughter (they look alike after all and this is no coincidence!) and Orpheus is the father (who plays the role of Abyss, El's father). However, I cannot agree with it because of how it doesn't exactly fit with the rest of the album.

The big thing that doesn't fit is the idea of El's Portrait. This is the story that starts every cycle of the story: a boy falls in an obsessed love with a girl he sees in a portrait, so obsessed that he searches for her forever, seeing his ideal girl "Elys" and chasing that ideal until his death. I feel that it is largely implied that "El" is an ideal, literally "one who shines" (what the word means in Hebrew--also used primarily as a short for God, Elohim). This ties in perfectly with the idea of El's origins being the portrait itself, rather than someone who is literally born out of Lafrenze's womb.

I see Majo to Lafrenze as a primarily symbolic song. It's stated as Elysion's example of "how the gates of paradise were opened for the first time"--that is, how Lafrenze's act of sinning and her loss of innocence represents the tainting of paradise. Much of Elysion centers around the idea that there is no paradise, but instead an abyss that awaits after death. This is because of the sin all around us that governs our world. The metaphorical Paradise Parade takes place in this location as a celebration of sin.

The loss of innocence, particularly the loss of virginity, is indeed an overarching concept in Elysion. It is a theme explored in Majo to Lafrenze (how man enters and taints the "gates of paradise" is analogous to a flower becoming impure which is analogous to the vagina being penetrated for the first time). The loss of innocence is a key component of all the ABYSS songs, and I even theorize that the loss of innocence is what prompts the entire Horizon in the first place from the perspective of its creator. I don't want to get into that too much here, but in summary: this release makes much more sense if you look at its events symbolically. I don't think El is literally Lafrenze's child, nor do I think the Paradise Parade is something that actually happens.
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PostSubject: Re: [Mature] Lafrenze' Relations Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:38 am#5

I agree with you, Ghostie. Thanks for pointing that.

My biggest complaint about "Lafrenze is the mother" is that it completely ignores what we know of ABYSS, as you have further explained. I still think that the initial narration implies quite heavily that ABYSS knew El's mother from a long time ago, and only had a relationship with her to obtain El. Lifetime is a very strong word to use and the one that really gives me that feeling. I would talk more, but I'm not exactly at my best moment right now... so sleepy.

Also I agree that both "El no Ehon" are more metaphors of the plot than real events in it. They are called "El's Picture Book" and they are framed as tales for a reason: they aren't meant to be taken literally. One of my earliest theories was that Lafrenze and Orpheus were a metaphor of the REAL relationship between ABYSS and El's mother (with Eurydice being truly El), and even now it still looks like a possibility to me. Not the only, I also like the "Lafrenze is the first El" theory as she is truly implied to be the first one to sin and lose her innocence.

I just think that arguing that El came out of Lafrenze means leaving too many plot threads hanging and it is a really weak theory. However, I still have pending my reread of Elysion so I'm talking mainly from pure memory here and I'm still limited in my arguments.
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